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Chiang Kai-shek and retrocession

Chiang could have surrendered.

His China wasn't a match for the militaristic Japan. But he didn't and China fought a total war with Japan for eight long years, during the first three years of which no substantial aid of any kind came from abroad except a token succor from Joseph Stalin's Soviet Union. Remember Chiang had been almost idolized by the Soviets as “Red General” all but on a par with Stalin and Vladamir Lenin before he started the Red Purge in China? But for Chiang's persistence, Japan could have easily conquered China.

What about Chiang's contributions to Taiwan? By the Cairo Declaration, he kept Taiwan for the Republic of China, which was written of by President Harry S. Truman after the failed U.S. mediation in the Chinese civil war. But Chiang came to Taiwan with his defeated army, without which Mao Zedong could have “washed Taiwan with blood.” Of course, Taiwan has survived as the Republic of China with the about-face decision of President Truman on the outbreak of the Korean War to keep the island as an “unsinkable aircraft carrier” in the Cold War, but without Chiang's retreat from the Chinese mainland with his 600,000 troops, the Republic of China would have perished in early 1950.

Communist China hated Chiang for killing at least 300,000 communists and communist sympathizers — estimated at a few millions by some communist historians — in the Red Purge and the subsequent “suppression of communist rebellion.”

It's only natural for communist Chinese leaders to denounce Chiang just as President Chen did, but the trend has been reversed. They now, perhaps for the purpose of wooing Chiang's followers, rate the generalissimo as a nationalist who kept China together in World War II and Taiwan as part of China after the war. Whatever the motive, their affirmation of Chiang Kai-shek is fair. Such affirmation is lacking in Taiwan, however.

Historiography of China has a unique feature. Official history is told in a dynastic cycle. Known as dynastic histories, or duandaishi (斷代史), the history of a dynasty is written by historians of the succeeding dynasty. The Republic of China has written the History of the Qing Dynasty or Qingshi (清史), and it behooves the People's Republic of China to write the History of the Republic of China, if Beijing leaders think they have ended the Republic of China. But no official history of the Republic of China has been published over the past six decades. One more feature in Chinese historiography is “biographies” or liezhuan (列傳), which tell of the lives of prominent persons of a dynasty. Chiang Kai-shek's life has to be written in the biographies of the Republic of China either in Taipei or Beijing and he must be described as a man who enabled the Republic of China to survive.

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November 5, 2012    taiwan_university@
Amazing that people still are writing these lies, glorifying the Chiangs after so many years. The author does not understand the Cairo Declaration. The Cairo Declaration is why the conquering powers still consider Taiwan's status undecided. The author fails to disclose that the USSR, UK and the USA did not consult with the ROC because they were a failed state and a failed government. Amazing that supporters of the KMT are still living in a dream world that the rest of the world's powers laugh at. Until the KMT wakes up Taiwan will be a second class nation. The "hate-Chiang" Movement started when Chen Shui-bian was a baby, but I am sure he would appreciate the author crediting him for it. As for History textbooks the author only needs to read History textbooks from the 60-70's to see copious praise of Chiang's supposed contributions. Please start living in the present, not the past.
November 6, 2012    detrchien@
taiwan_university@ wrote:
Amazing that people still are writing these lies, glorifying the Chiangs after so many years. The author does not understand the Cairo Declaration. The Cairo Declaration is why the conquering powers still consider Taiwan's status undecided. The author fails to disclose that the USSR, UK and the USA did not consult with the ROC because they were a failed state and a failed government. Amazing that supporters of the KMT are still living in a dream world that the rest of the world's powers laugh at. Until the KMT wakes up Taiwan will be a second class nation. The "hate-Chiang" Movement started when Chen Shui-bian was a baby, but I am sure he would appreciate the author crediting him for it. As for History textbooks the author only needs to read History textbooks from the 60-70's to see copious praise of Chiang's supposed contributions. Please start living in the present, not the past.
I think the author is correct. Late President Chiang Kai-Shek is the savior of our nation, he should be held in the highest regard even today. Without history, there is no present. For you Pan-Green supporters, I wish to tell you, that independence would never happen, no matter what happened in Cairo or the other meetings at the end of WWII. Your options are simple: Chiang Kai-Shek's ROC or Mao's PRC. Because of CKS, you don't live in the PRC. So, unless if you want to live in the PRC, be grateful to CKS and bow next time you pass a CKS statue or portrait.
November 6, 2012    narawanda@
"Kill them all. Keep it quiet."
November 6, 2012    carltanong@
President Chiang Kai-shek and President Chiang Ching--kuo should be remembered.

President Chiang Kai Shek gives us the freedom from Japanese enslavement,
President Chiang Kai-shek gives us abundant wealth and developing Taiwan ETC....So did his son President Chiang Ching-kuo.

Your Bushido Nipponese LEE TENG HUI gave us WHAT? Sold out Taiwanese Natives and Taiwanese Chinese by selling out our beautiful island and urged to follow him (N_LTH) as a Bushido Japanese SLAVE and KOWTOW inside the Yasukuni Shrine? NO WAY!!!

As for CHEN SHUI BIAN. He was born to be a Corrupt and a Traitor to Republic of China and should be rotten in JAIL. Likewise Bushido Nipponese LEE TENG HUI.

The Taoyuan International Airport should be change to its original name Chiang Kai Shek International Airport. WHY? Because CHEN SHUI BIAN changed the name to DIVERT the attention of the Taiwanese public to CONCEAL his CRIMES as a CORRUPT and a TRAITOR to Republic of China ETC......
November 6, 2012    carltanong@
We should live in the past so we can live and learn in the present to the future. To show our gratitude to President Chiang Kai-shek and his son President Chiang Ching-kuo is to remember them.
November 7, 2012    Leiduowen@
A very controversial eulogy indeed! Where's a mention of the white terror he and his minions installed in Taiwan, or the martial law he set up for almost 40 years? CKS and KMT effectively broke the backbone of Taiwanese intelligentsia and froze the social movement in TW for decades. For most Taiwanese, he and his suite were personae non gratae and I perfectly understand why his birthday is not remembered, not matter how hard you try. An option would have been, given that were already commissioned to produce an article of this kind, to assess CKS's deeds as 70% right, 30% wrong -- just like they did with Mao's legacy in China. After all, there wasn't THAT much difference between the two dictators, right?
November 7, 2012    johnny.brian@
CKS ruled with iron fist, CCK ruled with passion. What else these local Taiwanese, who ancestors were from China still complaining about. You have your independence protected, what more do these Taiwanese want for, "another" independence from what? For what? A costly mistake made by CKS government was to walk away from UN in 1972, lost a chair/membership! But still Taiwan have "Status Quo" Any mad man from DPP, KMT or other political parties declares Taiwan independence, that's end everybody here, including own unique Taiwanese identity. Do not be a historian to know this.
November 8, 2012    carltanong@
Leiduowen@

At that time civil war still hot and raging between the Blue and the Red. That is why President Chiang Kai-shek declared martial law to save Taiwan (even some western country declare martial law in time of chaos and unrest in civil war etc). And CKS know there are many spies, TRAITORS and opportunist to trigger the crisis more violently for theirs own evil purposes.....

i.e. A man.......
_Who love to cover his body with KENDO,
_Temporary cover himself with RED participated in 228.
_Temporary cover himself with BLUE.

After martial law was lifted.....unveiled his......
_That man was the first and only one X president of R.O.China who speak Japanese language with a Japanese journalist privately inside the presidential palace office, KOWTOW inside the YASUKUNI SHRINE and play the Japanese coseplay centered on Heihachi Edajima, Edajima Heihachi, a hawkish principal of a boarding school in the Japanese manga.
_Declared that Tiaoyutai Islands are the territory of Japan.
_ETC.......
That man is Bushido Nipponese LEE TENG HUI that love Japan more than Taiwan and lose his(N_TH) own Taiwanese identity. Yet always cry Taiwanese identity....as IWASATO MASAO(巖里政男).

I'm just wondering Bushido Nipponese is RED. How come N_LTH is the first Chinese Mr Democracy? Not our Dr Sun Yet Sen?
I'm just wonderling Bushido Nipponese is more Japanese, How come N_LTH become the first Chinese Mr Democracy? Not our Dr. Sun Yet Sen?
I'm just wonderling why those black propaganda machines successfully painted CKS as a villain who is the saviour of Taiwan and that N_LTH a TRAITOR become the hero of Taiwan?
November 8, 2012    hayashi.gildas@
Taiwanese should at least do something to remember CKS! Without him and his soldiers, Taiwan would be under the control of the PRC!!! I think that too many DPP supporters forgot that point! It is thanks to the blood of the ROC Army that Taiwanese are free and live in a democracy today. Don't forget that @taiwan_university
November 10, 2012    ludahai_twn@
Amazing how many Blues still ignore the fact that a basic principle of international law is that it required a signed, ratified, and executed treaty to transfer territory from one state to another state.
November 12, 2012    carltanong@
Why not talk practical way of thinking ludahai_nippon(twn). Even International Law has many defects.

Our territory will always be ours. We don't rob and we will not allow anyone to rob our territory. That is final.

Better let the International Law make a final judgment to convict Emperor Hirohito as a war criminal in ABSENTIA. Then we shall decide if International Law is partial or impartial to all mankind.
November 12, 2012    viaboston@
Haha...glorifying Chiang Kai-Shek is pathetic. Nations, true nations, need to look forward and not behind. They need to recognize the atrocities committed in their name, not live in the past, serve the people who are living on the island right now and not the tiny elite that is continuing to benefit and enrich themselves due to continued KMT rule.

This ongoing intransigence on the past by these KMT people is why Taiwan is becoming MEANINGLESS in the world. Nobody takes Taiwan seriously as a global nation, despite it's many strengths, because it can't speak out in any kind of independent way, it can't THINK for itself, like most of it's youth...and this youth are myopic and apathetic because of this constant bickering, letting these out of touch, corrupt, pathetic KMT run the country, sorry, destroy the country, it's economy, it's rich natural resources...

But Taiwan elected the KMT so they get what they deserve...Taiwan should be independent, find its own voice, create its own policies, be a power and a force in the world that could be an expression of its uniqueness. Taiwanese need to come together for this...but the politicians, DPP, included are too afraid to speak out.

Pathetic...
November 13, 2012    curtisakbar@
Yes, CKS did stop all of China becoming a part of Japan and he was the leader that split ROC and PRC, ensuring that eventually ROC would be democratic. His methods of martial law were following the ideas of SYS and his son did eventually give democracy or partial democracy. But the fact is that he stole and murdered, so we should respect him but also think he is a bit of a gimp.
November 14, 2012    ludahai_twn@
You have no idea about international law. You just make it up as you go along.

It is clear. Territory can only be transferred from one state to another state in a treaty.

But then again, I don't expect you to actually understand anything. After all, you still seem to believe Hitler and Mussolini were convicted at Nuremburg in absentia (both were dead) and that it is ok for five-year-old children to run 42.195 km.
November 14, 2012    carltanong@
Whether peoples love or hate President Chiang Kai Shek 蔣中正. It depends on that individual awareness of a moral and ethical aspect to realize his/her own conscience to judge CKS.

That moral and ethical aspect is the two words忠-孝 .

President CKS 蔣中正 possess the two words.
Bushido Nipponese 巖里政男_登輝(TENG HUI none).

Let us all remember President Chiang Kai-Shek birth and dead anniversary and rename the Taoyuan International Airport to its original name Chiang Kai Shek International Airport.
November 14, 2012    viaboston@
In addition CKS only was able to avoid defeat even after he went to Taiwan due to US intervention...this notion that he somehow preserved China or the Republic of China is just ridiculous. ROC at it's origins was a democracy, with democratic institutions, with democratic principles and ideals...not the pathetic, thieving, corrupt military dictatorship which lorded it over Taiwan for fifty years after 1945...even in China after the late 1920s CKS was never a democrat, one corrupt dictatorship for another, the CCP, is not to make out that CKS some sort of hero on Taiwan...sheesh, you people are ridiculous...Taiwan should be independent with a thriving multi-cultural, principled, idealistic, democratic nation that is able to contribute to the global good with complete autonomy, different from and yet culturally related to the mainland. All benefits to the old guard KMT should be equally and equitably distributed to the rest of the population...and not hoarded by the corrupt KMT who have basically stolen and unfairly benefited from their power...
November 14, 2012    superkinez@
I would like to ask you pro-Japanese/DPP/So-Called Natives something: You criticize our Great Leader CKS as if no "Native Taiwanese" ever benefited under KMT rule. I am sure that most "natives" live better under the KMT than under Japan. If not, then why isn't there an uprising every year? Unfortunately for you, your ancestors also came from Fujian, you are still Chinese no matter what you do or say. You will never achieve independence, so, please stop your nonsense and respect that we are all citizens of the ROC, and bow 3 times when you pass a CKS portrait.
November 16, 2012    Charles@
I believe it was at Cairo that CKS negotiated equitable wording of the treaty that will be signed in the event of an allied victory and then at Yalta Stalin in the absence of CKS fooled Churchill and Roosevelt into a disastrous agreement to end WWII. The Yalta agreement resulted in the world being divided east and west which then led to the cold war.
CKS always maintained that if the Cairo agreement was followed by the USA and GB, then there would not have been a PRC.
November 17, 2012    dorayakidave@
taiwan_university@ wrote:
Amazing that people still are writing these lies, glorifying the Chiangs after so many years. The author does not understand the Cairo Declaration. The Cairo Declaration is why the conquering powers still consider Taiwan's status undecided. The author fails to disclose that the USSR, UK and the USA did not consult with the ROC because they were a failed state and a failed government. Amazing that supporters of the KMT are still living in a dream world that the rest of the world's powers laugh at. Until the KMT wakes up Taiwan will be a second class nation. The "hate-Chiang" Movement started when Chen Shui-bian was a baby, but I am sure he would appreciate the author crediting him for it. As for History textbooks the author only needs to read History textbooks from the 60-70's to see copious praise of Chiang's supposed contributions. Please start living in the present, not the past.
Well said!
November 17, 2012    dorayakidave@
Chiang Kai-shek should be remembered as a dictator, murderer, and liar. Period. Yes, he ranks high up there with Mao, Stalin, and all those "great" political leaders. He already received way too much glorifications for what little good he has done. He was worshiped like God. Just ask anyone who grew up in Taiwan. It's time to set the record straight!
November 20, 2012    leejh27@
viaboston@ wrote:
In addition CKS only was able to avoid defeat even after he went to Taiwan due to US intervention...this notion that he somehow preserved China or the Republic of China is just ridiculous. ROC at it's origins was a democracy, with democratic institutions, with democratic principles and ideals...not the pathetic, thieving, corrupt military dictatorship which lorded it over Taiwan for fifty years after 1945...even in China after the late 1920s CKS was never a democrat, one corrupt dictatorship for another, the CCP, is not to make out that CKS some sort of hero on Taiwan...sheesh, you people are ridiculous...Taiwan should be independent with a thriving multi-cultural, principled, idealistic, democratic nation that is able to contribute to the global good with complete autonomy, different from and yet culturally related to the mainland. All benefits to the old guard KMT should be equally and equitably distributed to the rest of the population...and not hoarded by the corrupt KMT who have basically stolen and unfairly benefited from their power...
The CCP was not actually going to invade Taiwan when the U.S. brought in its 7th fleet in 1950. The fleet was just a show of force to discourage an invasion, and the ROC government was on its way to stabilization then. The CCP was only serious about doing it before the battle of Jinmen (1949) which the KMT forces repelled.

The financial support from the U.S. was what really saved the regime.

The CKS and CCK governments were known to be authoritarian against dissent as well as corruption taking place within its own government. CCK especially. A military dictatorship does not automatically mean that the government was corrupt.

The Lee Tung-Hui government starting in 1996 was democratically elected, but known for its high level corruption starting from the top. This continued under Chen Shui-Bian.

CCK used authoritarian measures to stop corruption in the country. It's not accurate to say that it was simply a "corrupt military dictatorship that lorded over Taiwan for 50 years".
November 20, 2012    carltanong@
dorayakidave@
I don't think so. Not only me and million but billion will never believed u as you say CKS is a dictator, murderer, and liar.

Remember one thing. Even in American civil war. President Abraham Lincoln had declared Martial Law. Not only AL. But many great man used Martial Law to stopped those Traitors to engaged in sabotaging and creating chaos, unrest into violent crisis for theirs own devil purposes.

If Taiwan have no such Traitors like 巖里政男_登輝IwasatoMasao TENG HUI. We still have high hope that the flag of Republic of China will fly proudly in the blue sky of Dioayutais island some day.

Remember 228. The Traitor 巖里政男_登輝 IwasatoMasao TENG HUI were there. He is the one should be name as murderer, and liar and soon to be a dictator if he succeeded.

And this Traitor 巖里政男_登輝 IwasatoMasao TENG HUI
was a dictator who stabbed the back without the consent of all Chinese that he declared Diaoyutais belong to Japan.

It is the right time now that all of us should remember President Chiang Kai-shek.
November 21, 2012    ludahai_twn@
Charles - then you are a fool. It is possible that the words of Cairo WOULD have been followed, but CKS and his bumbling cohorts lost China before the peace treaty legally ending WWII was even signed...

leejh27 - the historical facts do NOT support your assertion. The Communists had a very small navy in 1949-1950, but they had ousted KMT forces from Hainan Island (then part of Guangdong Province) early in 1950 and were definitely preparing for an assault on the remaining KMT forces that had fled to Taiwan. The U.S. Seventh Fleet prevented that from happening. Interesting to note that before the KMT fled to Taiwan, Mao actually supported Taiwan's independence...

Superkinez - there was no uprising due to the brutality of the KMT regime. How many people were disappeared, killed, imprisoned, exiled, watched, etc. by the KMT regime in Taiwan.
November 21, 2012    skylarjones@
ludahai_twn@
You're twisting facts. Mao supported Taiwan Independence from JAPAN, not from CHINA.
November 22, 2012    carltanong@
All the arguments of ludahai_nippon(twn) were lies and contradictions........

November 21, 2012 ludahai_nippon(twn) response to leejh27 was a BIG lies by Saying "Mao actually supported Taiwan's independence". The Economist should now say ludahai_nippon(twn) is a Big “ben dan”' (bumbler).

Only ludahai_nippon(twn) fools himself likewise 巖里政男_登輝 IwasatoMasao TENG HUI by declaring Diaoyutais belong to Japan and fools all the Taiwanese Natives and Taiwanese Chinese. Both daddy and son were BIG “ben dan”'(bumbler).
November 24, 2012    ludahai_twn@
skylarjones - not true. Independence for Taiwan was mentioned in the same context for Korea. Unless you are going to argue that Mao also wanted Korea to be a part of his Communist regime in China.

Carltanong has forgotten to take his meds again. The rubber room is missing its inmate.
November 24, 2012    superkinez@
ludahai_twn@ wrote:
Charles - then you are a fool. It is possible that the words of Cairo WOULD have been followed, but CKS and his bumbling cohorts lost China before the peace treaty legally ending WWII was even signed...

leejh27 - the historical facts do NOT support your assertion. The Communists had a very small navy in 1949-1950, but they had ousted KMT forces from Hainan Island (then part of Guangdong Province) early in 1950 and were definitely preparing for an assault on the remaining KMT forces that had fled to Taiwan. The U.S. Seventh Fleet prevented that from happening. Interesting to note that before the KMT fled to Taiwan, Mao actually supported Taiwan's independence...

Superkinez - there was no uprising due to the brutality of the KMT regime. How many people were disappeared, killed, imprisoned, exiled, watched, etc. by the KMT regime in Taiwan.
Mr. Ludahai_twn, I would like to tell you, Taiwanese Independence is wrong, and will never happen. I have read many of your comments, you seem to be very anti-Chinese. If you hate being Chinese, you should hate your ancestors that came from Fukien/Fujian. Your "Taiwanese" language is South Fukienese! Just go to Xiamen and listen to them. The aborigines are the real Taiwanese. You should also go back to mainland China so the aborigines can live in peace. Give it up, accept you are a citizen of the ROC, and get on your knees when you see a CKS portrait.
November 26, 2012    carltanong@
@ludahai_nippon(twn)

Luckily, I was not yet born in the period of your dearest fanatical war criminal Dr. Shiro Iishi of Unit 731 BioHazard medical center. Thank u for the medicine prescription u mentioned in the article of Makiyo......but don't overdose yourself. U are now seriously ill by saying Mao.....blah blah blah.
November 27, 2012    ludahai_twn@
Superkinez -- I am not anti-Chinese, I hate the Chinese government. There is a stark difference between hating the authoritarian government of the country and hating the country and its people. I had wonderful experiences in China when I lived there in the 90s so long as I didn't have to deal with government functionaries.

As for CKS, he was a tyrant and a dictator.

Taiwan was never transferred to China by treaty following WWII or at any other time.

Ancestry is NOT a basis for sovereignty. Most people in Quebec are descended from people in France, but they are not under French sovereignty. That is but one of many examples I can cite.

According to international law, the Taiwanese people and ONLY the Taiwanese people, not Beijing, not Washington, not Tokyo, can currently determine Taiwan's status.

Get on knees to worship a tyrant like CKS? This isn't the DPRK though CKS more resembles Kim Il-Sung than the democratic leaders of the country since 1996.
November 27, 2012    hetoon@
carltanong@ wrote:
President Chiang Kai-shek and President Chiang Ching--kuo should be remembered.

President Chiang Kai Shek gives us the freedom from Japanese enslavement,
President Chiang Kai-shek gives us abundant wealth and developing Taiwan ETC....So did his son President Chiang Ching-kuo.

Your Bushido Nipponese LEE TENG HUI gave us WHAT? Sold out Taiwanese Natives and Taiwanese Chinese by selling out our beautiful island and urged to follow him (N_LTH) as a Bushido Japanese SLAVE and KOWTOW inside the Yasukuni Shrine? NO WAY!!!

As for CHEN SHUI BIAN. He was born to be a Corrupt and a Traitor to Republic of China and should be rotten in JAIL. Likewise Bushido Nipponese LEE TENG HUI.

The Taoyuan International Airport should be change to its original name Chiang Kai Shek International Airport. WHY? Because CHEN SHUI BIAN changed the name to DIVERT the attention of the Taiwanese public to CONCEAL his CRIMES as a CORRUPT and a TRAITOR to Republic of China ETC......
I agree, Chiang Kai Shek International Airport should not have been changed in the first place. He deserves a rightful place in the history of the ROC. He had not only contributed to the survival of Taiwan as a nation, as illuminated by some of the commentators here, but had also rebuilt and sustained Taiwan's cultural heritage; The National Palace Museum is a case in point. There is more to see and appreciate in this museum as compared to its counterpart in Beijing. On politics, which strong ruler would not hesitate to use force in order to maintain national stability for national survival? Evidence of this abounds in the past and the present.
November 28, 2012    Charles@
This is part of the text in the instrument of Surrender that the Japanese signed. The terms of the unconditional surrender was to carry out the terms of the Potsdam declaration (Text also copied below) which specifically lists that the rule of Japan will be limited to the main islands as declared in the Cairo declaration. The Cairo declaration called for the return of Taiwan to the Republic of China. So it is clear that Taiwan is restored to Chinese rule in treaty and also in specific uncontested action.

We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government, and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever action may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that declaration.

"Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine." As had been announced in the Cairo Declaration in 1943
November 29, 2012    ludahai_twn@
"...and other such minor islands as we determine." Why do you guys ignore that phrase. The post-war treaties made that determination. No territory can pass from one state to another state legally without a treaty. The Instrument of Surrender is an armistice, NOT a treaty. San Francisco is a treaty.
November 29, 2012    superkinez@
ludahai_twn@ wrote:
Superkinez -- I am not anti-Chinese, I hate the Chinese government. There is a stark difference between hating the authoritarian government of the country and hating the country and its people. I had wonderful experiences in China when I lived there in the 90s so long as I didn't have to deal with government functionaries.

As for CKS, he was a tyrant and a dictator.

Taiwan was never transferred to China by treaty following WWII or at any other time.

Ancestry is NOT a basis for sovereignty. Most people in Quebec are descended from people in France, but they are not under French sovereignty. That is but one of many examples I can cite.

According to international law, the Taiwanese people and ONLY the Taiwanese people, not Beijing, not Washington, not Tokyo, can currently determine Taiwan's status.

Get on knees to worship a tyrant like CKS? This isn't the DPRK though CKS more resembles Kim Il-Sung than the democratic leaders of the country since 1996.
Mr.Ludahai, again, I am telling you, you ARE CHINESE, and you can't change it. So you are still arguing the point about the treaty after WWII. Even if you are correct, do you really think that the ROC and Beijing would just simply abandon their claim to Taiwan? Most Pan-Green supporters hate our military and destroy the military's morale by attacking our Late President, Chiang Kai-Shek and the reality of Taiwan being a part of the R.O.C. Why should the army defend us if we can't even settle our national identity? Who will defend us? DPP supporters with loud-speakers? I urge you to give up your anti-R.O.C. ideology and accept the R.O.C., which is already more than independent. The alternative is to live in Taiwan, PRC. I like Taiwan, R.O.C., a much better choice.
November 29, 2012    hetoon@
Charles@ wrote:
This is part of the text in the instrument of Surrender that the Japanese signed. The terms of the unconditional surrender was to carry out the terms of the Potsdam declaration (Text also copied below) which specifically lists that the rule of Japan will be limited to the main islands as declared in the Cairo declaration. The Cairo declaration called for the return of Taiwan to the Republic of China. So it is clear that Taiwan is restored to Chinese rule in treaty and also in specific uncontested action.

We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government, and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever action may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that declaration.

"Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine." As had been announced in the Cairo Declaration in 1943
The problem with the Potsdam Declaration is that The Allied Powers were not specific in their details concerning the minor islands, but what is clear in the Cairo Communique of 1943 is as follows: ' It is their purpose that Japan shall be stripped of all the islands in the Pacific which she has seized or occupied since the beginning of the first World War in 1914, and that all the territories Japan has stolen from the Chinese, such as Manchuria, Formosa, and The Pescadores, shall be restored to the Republic of China.' Charles, your demand for action, on behalf of Japan, regarding Diayutai and other smaller islands seem to be a tall order, and truly unrealistic. It is well documented that the carving up of Nation States after 1945 has created intractable boundary problems between nations, but it is encouraging, and about time too that UN and the UK, in particular, is now prepared to give the Palestinian people a voice and a nationhood, provided certain conditions between themselves and Israel are met. More peace and lesser conflict, is what most of us want, in our global village.
November 30, 2012    skylarjones@
An independent Taiwan (de facto or de jure) without Chiang Kai-shek is as likely as a independent Tibet under Tenzin Gyatso today.
December 1, 2012    carltanong@
ludahai_twn@"...[and other such minor islands as we determine." Why do you guys ignore that phrase. The post-war treaties made that determination. No territory can pass from one state to another state legally without a treaty. The Instrument of Surrender is an armistice, NOT a treaty. San Francisco is a treaty.]

ludahai nippon(twn)
Wake up. This is 2012. Just swallow ur own controversial San Francisco is a treaty. Nobody believe u. Because SFT is too controversial. NOT a treaty.......

"Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku". PERIOD.

"Okinawa/Ryukyu would actually become independent rather than be given back to Japan after she lost in WW2"...PERIOD...

Have a nice day without taking that controversial PILL that can make u SICK.



December 5, 2012    ludahai_twn@
You can't read. You ignored the rest of the statement in the Potsdam Declaration.

Clause 8 reads, "8.The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine." So, it is NOT 'PERIOD'.

The nature of the boundaries was determined in the subsequent treaties. Once again, it is a fundamental principle in international law that sovereignty over territory can only be transferred from one state to another state by treaty.

Now, you can keep being ignorant about history and lie about it, or you can learn to read and truly understand what is going on.
December 6, 2012    skylarjones@
With Japan having no claim to Formosa island, it would have been easy pickings for Mao's Red Army. Good thing Chiang Kai-shek was there.
December 7, 2012    superkinez@
ludahai_twn@ wrote:
You can't read. You ignored the rest of the statement in the Potsdam Declaration.

Clause 8 reads, "8.The terms of the Cairo Declaration shall be carried out and Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku and such minor islands as we determine." So, it is NOT 'PERIOD'.

The nature of the boundaries was determined in the subsequent treaties. Once again, it is a fundamental principle in international law that sovereignty over territory can only be transferred from one state to another state by treaty.

Now, you can keep being ignorant about history and lie about it, or you can learn to read and truly understand what is going on.
You Pan-Green DPP/ROC-haters are the illiterate ones. So, if you have the all the answers, tell us what will you do when the People's Liberation Army marches into Taipei? Why provoke a fight we can't win when we already have it all? That is not on your mind because DPP supporters are all cowardly and go with whatever is popular. If the PLA ever march into Taipei, you will be the one welcoming them while waving a PRC flag claiming to have been their supporters all along.
December 7, 2012    ludahai_twn@
@Skylar -- more like good thing the U.S. Navy was here...
December 8, 2012    skylarjones@
@ludahai_twn:

The same can be said about George Washington (a man who also owned humans as property) and the French. No leader is perfect, especially those that existed before our times given the values of their day. But that shouldn't take away from their achievements. Chiang Kai-shek also did well by Taiwan.
December 8, 2012    skylarjones@
Also, with Chiang Kai-shek, the USA would care about as much whether or not Taiwan was taken over by Commies as they cared about Tibet being taken over by the Commies.
December 9, 2012    Charles.Leviticus@
Face it guys, within 10 years Taiwan will be known as 'Special Economic Zone Taipei'.
December 11, 2012    ludahai_twn@
@skylarjones -- comparing Jiang to Washington is an insult. Jiang started decades of tyranny in Taiwan. How many people were imprisoned or disappeared due to differences in political conscience. To compare him to Washington is only indicative of Chinese KMT brainwashing.
December 11, 2012    carltanong@
ludahai_nippon(twn)

George Washington, Abraham Lincoln and CKS declared martial law to prevent those traitors to incite rebellion and create civil unrest.

Unlike War Criminals and Tyrant Emperor Hirohito, a self terrorist himself committed atrocities against the Asians. PERIOD.
December 11, 2012    ludahai_twn@
Very short periods of time compared to Chiang. Furthermore, how many thousands of people were imprisoned and killed by Chiang? Chiang gave Taiwan the longest period of martial law in the history of martial law.

And if you know anything about Japan, you would know that Hirohito was not the tyrant. He was a constitutional monarch prior to the illegal seizure of power by the Japanese military.
December 12, 2012    skylarjones@
@ludahai_twn
Do you realize how many Africans died on board the ships that transported them to America? How many slaves were tortured by their masters? This all continued to happen when Washington was President. He did nothing to stop it; he was complicit to the travesty.
December 12, 2012    skylarjones@
@ludahai_twn
This isn't KMT brainwashing. I went through the entire American school system starting from kindergarten. This information is coming to you from an American that wasn't brainwashed by the American school system.
December 12, 2012    Leiduowen@
Charles.Leviticus@ wrote:
Face it guys, within 10 years Taiwan will be known as 'Special Economic Zone Taipei'.
@Leviticus: Face what? Your wishful thinking? Or you've read too many Chinese historical novels which claim that "what has been divided for too long will inevitably re-unify"? A glance at the history of Taiwan would tell you it has never been an integral part of China, even before the handover to Japan after it had reached the status of a province. It was just too remote from the power center, and the least Chinese of all the core Chinese provinces to be of much interest to Beijing. Now the interest is definitely there, yet the power of persuasion may not last for too long. You may want to consider the fact that China itself is not such a stable monolith as it may seem, and remember the second part of the saying, very true for the dynastical cycle in China: "What has long been unified is bound to collapse in the end".
December 12, 2012    ludahai_twn@
@skylarjones - Do you know that when the Constitution was drafted and ratified that a provision was put in to END the transport of slaves to the United States from Africa and as soon as the Constitution permitted it, it was banned? Didn't think so...
December 13, 2012    ryan.gillies@
I think everyone here probably needs to take a step back, realize that no-one is capable of comprehending the enormity of human history or its potential future, and what that means for Taiwan today.

This author is obviously a person who appreciates what CKS did. If you don't appreciate what he did write an article stating otherwise and submit it to the China Post.
December 13, 2012    carltanong@
Leiduowen@ wrote........
"A glance at the history of Taiwan would tell you it has never been an integral part of China".

IF that is true Taiwan is not a integral of (Qing) China.
Then tell us why Japan needed the Treaty of Shimonoseki to be signed by (QING) China?

Instead you should say that "Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku. and Okinawa/Ryukyu would actually become independent rather than be given back to Japan after Japan lost in WW2"...and Diaoyutais should also return back to Republic of China.



December 18, 2012    skylarjones@
@ludahai_twn
The US Constitution stopped the import of slaves in 1808, 20 years after the drafting of the Constitution. Which changes my point not a wit, Washington was President during the importation of slaves from Africa. Do you know how many people died on their trip to the Americas when Washington was President? George Washington: Great man? George Washington: Great Owner of Human Chattel.
December 18, 2012    Leiduowen@
carltanong@ wrote:
Leiduowen@ wrote........
"A glance at the history of Taiwan would tell you it has never been an integral part of China".

IF that is true Taiwan is not a integral of (Qing) China.
Then tell us why Japan needed the Treaty of Shimonoseki to be signed by (QING) China?

Instead you should say that "Japanese sovereignty shall be limited to the islands of Honshu, Hokkaido, Kyushu, Shikoku. and Okinawa/Ryukyu would actually become independent rather than be given back to Japan after Japan lost in WW2"...and Diaoyutais should also return back to Republic of China.



This issue is long and thorny, as it touches the very nature of Taiwanese post-war sovereignty. From your previous postings it is obvious you are very passionate about this issue, however, on the basis of the historical documents you've brought up you cannot conclusively argue your point. Let me just remind you of the fact that by 1895, though already a province on its own and populated mainly by descendants of Chinese immigrants, Taiwan was still not fully controlled by China as large inland territories were out of its jurisdiction, which means it was not yet completely colonized, partly a "no man's land". The Qing government, weak as they were, gave away a part of China's territory that they found the most problematic, most difficult to govern and the least profitable. That was the niche the Japanese sought to exploit (as they had a better business model for it), and the reason for the treaty you mention.
December 19, 2012    ludahai_twn@
George Washington was not directly involved with either the writing or the ratification of the Constitution of the United States. The compromise over the slave trade is what made its ending in 1808 possible in the first place. Without the compromises made between the North and the South at the Constitutional Convention, the Constitution would never have been ratified and the transatlantic trade to North America would have continued beyond 1808.

You DO realize, perhaps, that the trade DID continue beyond 1808, but not to the United States and you PERHAPS realize that the U.S. was NOT the largest importer of slaves. You also perhaps realize that the slave trade far predated even the trans-Atlantic trade and the trade continued long after the trans-Atlantic trade ended once Brazil finally eliminated it??? Perhaps you know these facts... perhaps you don't... So many of the pro-Chiang people here have such a poor understanding of history...
December 19, 2012    annabel@
@ludahai_twn
George Washington, the first President of the United States, was a black slave owner for all of his life. That is George Washington Black Terror.
You must be crazy again to defend him.
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